Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi, everybody, and welcome to aging in America. I am your host, Bena Coleman, and we are so glad you are here joining us today. Today we have such a special episode. I know everyone who is listening is going to feel that they either will be affected or have been affected. And I'm just so excited to have Joyce Petrowski with us to have this episode released on the week of senior fraud Awareness day. Joyce is here to talk to us about her advisci program called Rose Advisci, Joyce, please join us.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Hi, Baina.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: Hi. How are you?
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Good. How are you doing?
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Good. We're so happy you're here. Like I said, I know this is such a passion project for you, and you've really made it your life's work. But before we talk about all that, can you just let us know what is Rose advocacy? I am so sorry I keep messing up that word today.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: That's okay. So, yeah, rose advocacy.org is the website, and our mission is to prevent the financial exploitation and defrauding of the older adults through advocacy and education. So we have a comprehensive reoccurring education and awareness program where we bring the awareness and education to the older adults about the scams that are targeting them. We talk about some different scams. We kind of, we've developed what we call an anatomy of a scam infographic, which breaks down scams into three different parts. We go over that, and then, you know what, what sets us apart from everyone else doing this is we have a lot of resources and tips and tools that we then talk to the older adults about. And we're actually developing, and it should be developed this month, a secondary program to go in conjunction with this one. I just talked about where it's going to be a more hands on workshop where we can take those resources and tips and tools and help the older adults put them into place, whichever ones they choose to put into place so they can be better protected.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Oh, my God. You are speaking my language with the tips and resources.
I actually, that was one of my questions is how do we tell the seniors to protect themselves? So, of course, you came up with this program because this is what you do and you're amazing at it. So thank you. I do want to hear more about that.
You talk about scams. We hear about them all the time in the senior world. Unfortunately, they happen to everybody, but mostly to the seniors, as we're aware. Is there any major known scams happening right now that people who are listening can be aware for their aging loved ones? Like, you know, just a couple very specific ones that you want to mention.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Well, a lady that I just talked to recently, last summer, the FBI had put out a public service announcement about a new twist on a tech support scam. And the elder fraud report for 2023 from the FBI just came out in, in the last couple days, and it still shows that the tech support scam was the number one scam for seniors last year. But this twist on the tech support scam is they're impersonating McAfee, Microsoft, all of these more, larger, well known companies, and it's not about, you have a virus and we need to get rid of it on your device.
You're owed a refund for a subscription. And.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: And so they, and this is what happened to this lady, and it'll be out on my podcast in a couple weeks, is that she used to have McAfee. And so that caught her attention.
And she had just gotten an email from McAfee the week before. So everything kind of, you know, the scammers got lucky with her that everything kind of fell into place. And so she called the number, and looking back now, she said that was the first red flag is that she should not have called that number that came up on the pop up or the email, however they got in touch with her. But, you know, they were, she said, they said all the right things. They impersonated McAfee very well, and she was due a refund. And so, of course, they have to get into your computer to be able to do the refund. Right. There's no more, we'll just mail you a check. Right. It's, we have to get into your computer. And so, long story short, once they got into her computer, they had access to all of her banking information.
And what they said was that they were supposed to put, I think, like dollar 200 refund in and they made a mistake and put $20,000 in. And we need to get this back. We're going to get in trouble. It's really going to affect the company.
And so she goes down to the bank withdrawals, you know, withdraws the money. And she didn't say how she sent, oh, it was a bitcoin machine. They instructed her to go to a bitcoin ATM and she put it in there. But so she lost that point. But then they also had access to her bank account and they wiped out her checking and savings. But the kicker on this one was that she had a home equity line of credit and they funded it.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Honestly, I on the verge of tears. This is horrific. This is a horrific thing happening. And if it happened to this person, Joyce, that you've talked to, we know she's not the only one.
[00:05:53] Speaker B: Oh, exactly. It happens to, it's happened enough that the FBI has seen a trend. So they put that public service announcement out last summer. But, and even according to their elder fraud report for last year, you know, tech support scams were the number one scams as far as the older adults falling, falling victim to and losing money.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: So two things, just out of curiosity, can you explain, and I believe I know what McAfee is, can you explain to the audience what it is clear? Yeah.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: McAfee is a large, reputable company and you can buy like, antivirus software.
Yeah. They have different products like that. And so a lot of people would have used or had a McAfee subscription in the past, or maybe they currently do. And so, you know, scammers are going to find those larger, more well known companies, reputable companies, because they know they have so many customers that when they're impersonating them, they have a higher chance of hitting people that actually have a subscription or did have a subscription with them. And that's how they advance is, you know, before it used to be the pop up, you have a virus, call us, we can help you fix it. Well, they changed it and said, okay, now you do a refund.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: So then my second question to that is, when you say they're contacting them for these text scams and they're the elderly population, we're not talking text messages, we're talking emails. Correct. And not phone calls.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: You know, it, it could be a phone call, predominantly, I think it's an email message or it's a pop up on your machine you're using. But, you know, I'm not going to rule out a text message or a phone call because that's just, that's just different ways that they can contact you and you, you know, if they find out that everybody's attuned to their pop ups, well, they're going to change it and they might start calling or they might start text messaging. You know, that because they change their techniques all the time. So you need to be prepared for a variety of different ways that you can get contacted.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: You brought up the FBI report. I know last time you and I spoke, we were waiting for it to be released. So it sounds like it just got released. Anything you can share?
[00:08:10] Speaker B: Yes. Okay. I know.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: We'll take it one step at a time.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: I just put a social media post out about this last night I got it and I was reading it, and I would tell people over the last six months when I would do presentations or the last few months that it wasn't out yet. So the only numbers I had were from 2022.
And if we looked at from 2020, the people that reported that they were a victim, 60 plus in Arizona lost about 27 million. 2021, it went up to 54 million. 2022, it went up to 82 million. I said, I totally expect in 2023 for it to be over 100 million. It was 128 million.
If you look at where it was four years ago, 27 million to 128,000,625% increase.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Just as they're getting smarter, I mean.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: I mean, it's because they change their techniques and they're so believable, and they. They prey on your emotions, you know?
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: You know, I have people that. That say, oh, well, you know, my older loved ones are still cognitively intact, and they're very smart. You know, they're not going to fall for a scam, and that they might be very smart and still cognitively intact. But. And I don't mean to sound harsh when I say this, but it's just kind of a, you know, a way to look at it is scammers don't send out an IQ test.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: Trying to get. And not that you would get an IQ test, they would send something out that, you know, how there's all those quizzes on social media and all those things you can take, it would be something like that that would then let them, you know, they're not doing that. Everybody's a target, and they just blanket everybody with whatever scheme they're working on, hoping that a small percentage of the people will start engaging with them and buy into what they're saying.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: It's the numbers game, right? Like, if they're right, they're going to send out a huge blanket, like you said, and we'll see who responds on a very personal level. I will tell you, Joyce, I'm 40, and when I started with parent projects, I actually got caught up in a scam. And you do feel stupid, there's no question. I cried for two days. And it's one of those things. I got one of those emails. I truly believed it was from our founder trying to get gift cards bought for our clients. Being a very good new employee wanted to do a good job, and it was a gift card scam. And, I mean, like I said, I'm 40, and it was horrific for me. And I didn't lose as much as these poor people who worked their whole life and are saving, and now they're retired.
And, you know, if I can do it. Like you said, they're not sending out the IQ test. I got a silly email. I should never have responded. And that's just went down the rabbit hole from there. So I completely understand. Yeah.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: So, you know, you, you look at what you went through, you, they put you into an emotional state. They knew you were a new employee. And how do they find that? You know, people post on social media, they start new jobs. All you do is update your LinkedIn profile and what's it send out to everybody that you've started a new position. Right. And so they can, there's, there's ways that they find this information out. And you, you're in that emotional state, like, oh, okay. Yeah, you know, I want to impress my boss. Absolutely, I'm going to do this. And it isn't until after the fact you come out of that emotional state. You're in a rational state, and you go back and think about the situation.
Then you can see the red flags or you can see the things that you should have done. And so that's why I tell people, you know, it's not a matter of how smart you are or how not smart you are. Everybody, I shouldn't say everybody. I'm sure there's some people that just aren't emotional people. They just are constantly, they just don't get into emotions. But the majority of people have a variety of different emotions, and the scammers know that, and that's what they're exploiting. So it has nothing to do with how smart you are, how not smart you are. It's your emotions.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Well, you touched on it because, like, you know, I, like you said, LinkedIn must have picked up on this, whatever the case was. I got hit at 40. But you're right. I imagine my mom with her grandkids, God forbid she ever gets a call, and you can explain in further detail what the call may be. But if she ever gets a call that one of her grandchildren are in trouble, what are you going to do with your grandchild? So I completely understand.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that's the grandparents scam. You know, they know that most grandparents will do anything for their grandchildren. You know, it's, it's. And I, I tell people this in the presentations years ago, we got my mom because my two kids are her own. Well, she's passed. She passed about four years ago, but we're her only two grandkids. And if she would have gotten one of those calls, she would have wiped out her bank accounts. She would have done cash advances on credit cards, tried to open up loans to give money, thinking to shave her babies. Right? And, you know, and what I started to say was, years ago, you know, we bought her this plaque, and it said, grandchildren are your reward for not killing your kids. You know, because it was like, if the kids asked her for money, it's always kind of like, hmm, why do you need the money? And there's all these questions, but the.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: Grandkids, oh, there's no question.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: You don't. And that's okay, right?
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Oh, it's how it should be. I agree.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, but again, scammers see that relationship and they exploit it. They know if I can scare the grandparent that something is going on with the grandkid, they aren't even going to think twice. They're going to send the money. They're going to go get the gift cards. You know, they're going to. And if they don't have the money, I'm going to show them how to do a cash advance.
Right. You know, I mean.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: So it's, again, it's emotions, and there's nothing wrong with slowing down, taking some time to think. You know, I had somebody tell me recently, they had gotten the phone call and they called their daughter, who was the mother of the grandchild, and couldn't get ahold of her. Cause they wanted to check out what was going on with their grandchild. So they called the grandchild sibling, sister and got ahold of the sister, and she was like, no, no, no, grandpa, nothing is going on with, you know, whatever John or whatever his name was.
[00:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: And so that's exactly what we want people to do is stop and go talk to somebody that, you know, like and trust or try to get ahold of that grandchild, a sibling, a parent that you can verify what is going on.
You know, with 99% of the time, nothing is going on. It's, it's a scam.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: So, you know, we can talk about other scams. I know grandparent one's a big one, obviously, we just talked about that. But are you seeing any of this voice? AI. Sorry. Being part of it, truthfully.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: So that's. Go ahead.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: Oh, sorry. I was going to say lately, and maybe because I'm paranoid that I got caught in the scam, but lately I've noticed I get a lot of numbers I don't recognize. And I always, in my head now because I'm paranoid, I say if I say hi or hello? Are they gonna be able to record my voice and then start a whole scam? So is that something that's true? Am I crazy?
[00:16:03] Speaker B: No, you're not crazy. And that is your healthy skepticism about what has gone on and has what has happened to you. So now you have that healthy skepticism that this happens, and I need to be aware. It used to be the say yes scam, where you would answer the phone and either a bot or a person would ask you a yes question, and you would say yes. Like, they would be like, is this bina? And you would say yes. Well, then that recorded yes was used to say that you approved buying something or doing something that you really didn't do.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Now, with the AI, this is how. Especially with the grandparents scam. You know, it used to be that they didn't even know if you had grandchildren, and then they knew, and they knew what the grandchildren's names were. And now you get the call, and the voice sounds exactly like your grandchild, because they just need a couple second recording of the voice, and you can find that everywhere, right? All over.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: It's terrifying, to be honest.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: It is. And, you know, and then they can make that recording say what they want. I was reading an article recently, and it was about a school official, and I don't know where it was in the United States, but a school official had used the principal's voice recording and made it and came up with a totally fake recording that when you listen to the recording, it's the principal saying all these racial slurs against certain populations. But the principal.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: And he wasn't doing it just to prove a point. Like, he really was doing it to get this guy in trouble, I guess.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: You know, I don't know. I don't know the whole story, because all I just saw, and I listened to the. You know, so I don't know the whole story. I don't know what predicated the school official to do this, but it so easy to make someone's voice say something they really didn't. Right? And even with romance scams now, with.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Gonna ask you to touch on those, because I do. I know they happen. I've been in this. I know you know they happen. But I've been in this world for a long time. You've been in this world for a long time. But I want people to, if you could explain the romance scams, really understand if they do have a single, aging, loved one parent, whatever it may be, what can happen?
[00:18:30] Speaker B: So, the romance scam.
So if you're on social media, and let's say you're on Facebook. There's a lot of older adults that are on Facebook. And in their profile, if it says widow, widower, that's a red flag right there for scammers. They see that, and so they're going to start looking to where they can find you. Are you on a dating app? Can I message you through social, you know, through the Facebook? Just different ways. And then they always want to take the conversation, you know, offline, and they develop that, that relationship with you so they don't come out of the gate like a lot of these other scams do, asking for money, because they are grooming you with this, get you into this absolute trust. And, you know, we always used to say, be very careful when a love interest that you met online never wants to get on camera or agrees to get on camera, but always has an issue as to why they can't get on camera. Now with the deep fakes and the AI, they're probably going to get on camera and they can make that what you're looking at look exactly like the picture they have in the profile.
Right.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: So it's really interesting that you say that because, I mean, it's, that's catfishing, correct?
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: It's important, catfishing, right.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I know that's very popular, and it is very scary because, like you said, it is grooming. It's a long con, it's a very long process that they're really going to get you involved and make you want to help them any way they can.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And there was a, I just put it out. What's today, Wednesday? On Monday on our social media, it was a public service announcement from the FBI, and you could pull it up from there if you want to send it out to, you know, all of your people. But the FBI was noticing an increase of people being victimized through dating apps. And so the scammer gets ahold of them through the dating app, and then the scammer's like, well, I need to verify that you or, no, I have a verification process that you can go through to make sure that, you know, that you're not dealing with a serial killer or a child molester, you know, all that stuff.
And so you click on this link and it'll ask you for some information, like your name, phone number, credit card information. You put all that stuff in, you're immediately sent to this dating site. Right.
But then you're automatically being charged really high subscription fees on a reoccurring basis. And so you're going to find out about them if you check your credit card statements. So, you know, you can stop it. But there's a lot of people that don't pay attention to their credit card statements or they just kind of scan down through it and they might not notice it because it's mixed in with a bunch of other numbers. Right.
But, yeah, so it's a, you can find it on our Facebook and LinkedIn page that I put out on Monday. It's a new FBI public service announcement.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll be checking that out. And I want to say, like, we can wrap this part up, but I think that piece of information about the dating can go for anyone at any age.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Again, like, of course I'm worried about the seniors, but that's just something good to know for everybody.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. Right.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: You brought up how we can find this from you, the FBI report. I just want everyone to know that there is a quarterly podcast you actually do with pan projects and the founder, Tony. It is called Present Danger. And the next one is going to be out on June 26, which happens to be the last Tuesday of the quarter. So you and Tony's podcast will always come out the last Tuesday, once a quarter. And I know you guys dive way more into all this stuff, but just so everyone knows where they can also hear more information on this.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Right? Yep.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: So before we wrap up, you mentioned healthy skeptic. See, I can't say words today, Joyce. Healthy. Yes, you say it.
And can you touch a little bit about that? And then we'll wrap up just because, you know, there's been so much information. And I really, I really appreciated what you said going through what I went through.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Right. So, you know, what, you explained what you felt after you realized it was a scam. You said you felt stupid. You felt embarrassed.
Just about everybody feels that way, no matter how old they are, you know, but I think a lot of the seniors are more apt to feel that way because, and I'm going to say we, because I'm in the senior category.
We were brought up as a very trusting, we were all very trusting, you know, of everybody. It was just a different world back in the seventies and the eighties. And so I think it hits home a lot of feeling stupid and embarrassed and ashamed when you're older and you find out you've been scammed. But the way to look at it is we need to get everybody, especially the seniors, to develop a healthy skepticism. And that's really what we're trying to do when we are making them aware of what's going on and educating them about different scams and giving them different resources. And it has to be a continual conversation because when somebody out of the blue contacts you, you need that healthy skepticism to be okay, who are they? What do they really want from me? You know, to be asking yourself questions, to be talking to somebody, you know, like and trust, to go over things, to verify things before, like you said, you go down that rabbit hole.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I love that. Talk to somebody, you know, love and trust. And going through what I went through with the founder of the company, I look back, of course, 2020, like I always could have just said, hey, did you text me needing gift cards? But, you know, you're in the moment in. Yeah. So completely, completely get that. This has been so, so wonderful, Joyce. I always, I always love talking to you.
I know that you, like I said, will have your podcast with Tony and you do your own podcast. But can you tell us how we can find you? The audience can find you on social or anywhere else.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Sure. So we're on Facebook and LinkedIn.
I do have an Instagram site, but I need a tutorial on Instagram to figure out the best way to do that. But we're more active on Facebook and LinkedIn. We have biweekly podcast. It's called let's talk about scams. And you can find it on Apple and Spotify and over 15 different podcast platforms.
You can go to our website at rose advocacy.org and right on the homepage, there's links to the social media. And if you scroll down a little bit, you can sign up for our newsletters. We do an emailed one which has a lot more information, but we also send one in the mail because we realize not all seniors like to get things in email. They like to get them in the mail and read them. So we do one in the mail as well. And it gives you links to sign up for both of those.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: So I do get your newsletter, and I will say it's very informative, but I would never have thought about the mail option, and I think that is very smart. So thank you for doing that.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: And thank you for being here, Joyce, thank you for sharing your time, talents and treasures with us. We've really enjoyed it.
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
[00:26:14] Speaker C: Well, that's it for the team this week. And thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed the content, remember to subscribe and share this episode on the app that you're using right now. Your reviews and your comments. They really help us expand our reach as well as our perspectives. So if you have time, also drop us a note. Let us know how we're doing for tips and tools to clarify your parent project, simple communication with your stakeholders and verify the professionals that you choose. You can find us on YouTube, follow us on Instagram and Facebook. Thanks again for trusting us until our next episode. Behold and be held.
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